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Post by tons0phun on Jun 13, 2011 23:11:09 GMT
I was just thinking of how zombie evolution, in a way, is similar to survivors gaining skills over time. Survivors become tougher, more robust, and more damaging over time, just as zombies would over time with evolution. Now, it's not quite the same, since evolution just accounts for providing zombies with more HP and damage. But I thought, what if the zombies evolved, but in a way that's as engaging as the survivor-end of gameplay?
What if the undead (specifically turned undead, and zombie masters) got a set of zombie-skills that they leveled up with every sunset?
Things like...
[where 'x' denotes the level of the corresponding skill]
Bash :: +2X DMG against objects
Stench :: +5X% chance of survivors vomitting from your smell
Lunge :: +X turns of running per day
Sunken Eyes :: +X Field of Vision in darkness
Regeneration :: +X% chance regenerating 1 HP while in darkness
Carnivorous :: +15X% HP regained from eating/zombifying survivors
Visage :: +5X% chance to appear as living to survivors at their Max Field of View, minus your Visage level. Dangerous at night! [includes ZM!]
Moan :: +X radius to moan [Press S], to roust the living and attract the undead.
Hunger :: +2X ATK, +2X DMG
Claws :: Survivors take +X turns of +1 DMG after being damaged. (as though they were attacked again)
Bite :: Survivors take +X turns of -2 STA after being damaged.
Grab :: The Zombie can now grab survivors to make them stationary! Survivor must use "push" on zombie, and spend +5X stamina to break free! (Or y'know, kill the zombie)
Pungent :: +X scent emission radius [for ZM attraction, Stench skill. At lvl 1 gives a turned-undead a ZM scent]
Freshly Undead :: +0.2X SPD +4X HP
Remnants :: +X items can be held (but not used) [would let ZM set devious traps! would make zombie-hunting interesting]
Hunter :: Intensity of human scent is multiplied by +5X%
Brains :: Recruit +X Undead to your personal mob. You can order them to attack (indiscriminately), follow you, or stay still (but if alarmed, they resume roaming). You also get to choose their undead skills every sunset. More tools for ZM to cause trouble with!
Right now the Survivor side of gameplay is most engaging and I feel something like this would even up things on the Undead side, especially when you go from playing your living self to your undead self. It would also provide modders further control of gameplay elements, and add even more uncertainties to survival! ;D
What do you think?
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Post by DannyQ on Jul 26, 2011 20:01:46 GMT
Sounds great, trying to play as the undead kind of bites at the moment.
The only problem with your idea is I could see some people being cheap and just hiding somewhere day after day until they have all sorts of abilities then finally going after people.
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Post by tons0phun on Aug 4, 2011 19:19:34 GMT
True, but if you wait for several days without hunting/engaging/slaying survivors, you're giving up tons of points!
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Post by hunteralpha1 on Aug 7, 2011 1:14:10 GMT
what if zombies leveled their skills with combat? for example you get 1 skill point for every living you kill? or if that's too easy, you get xp towards skillpoints depending on the difficulty of the kill, i.e. regular people wouldn't give you much at all, cops give a little more, survivors give you one or two skill points, and special NPCs give you five or more, etc.
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Post by tons0phun on Aug 8, 2011 15:41:39 GMT
I'm not sure...at that point the game becomes less about survival, and more about grinding and fighting for exp. Experience points are something Rogue Survivor is entirely devoid of so far, and that's a quality that I think helps maintain its elegant simplicity.
It's like the Advanced Wars of Zombie Games. ;D
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Post by DannyQ on Aug 9, 2011 9:11:11 GMT
I'm not sure...at that point the game becomes less about survival, and more about grinding and fighting for exp. Experience points are something Rogue Survivor is entirely devoid of so far, and that's a quality that I think helps maintain its elegant simplicity. At the same time though that's more for survivors, for zombies the objective is more about killing survivors and evolving, which at the moment they are horribly unsuited to do since any non-sleeping survivor is too fast and if armed too lethal for them to deal with. With the lack of needing to sleep or eat the standard method of skill-gain might be alot worse since all they need to do is find a corner and hide for days. |
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nope
Member
Posts: 150
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Post by nope on Nov 4, 2011 14:14:36 GMT
Yes
i support the Killing to get skills method, i mean, a brainless undead doesn't learn how to kill humies without getting out there and.......well, KILLING humans
humans, with their ability to adopt and think, is suited to gaining skills via time, i mean, getting the carpentry skill could be them unleashing their inner creativity to build things
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Post by tons0phun on Nov 4, 2011 15:49:31 GMT
Ah, a brainless undead doesn't learn anything though, ever!
The meaning of experience is entirely devoid to the undead.
If player controlled Survivors were against player controlled Undead, then I could see the need for pressuring the undead into kill to gain abilities.
Otherwise I think it should still be kept as an analog to Survivors gaining skills every sunset...
Because let's face it, there's only one zombie in all of the city which would intentionally hide for the purpose of gaining skills: you!, the player!
And that's fine!
Because let's face it: it is factually harder to fight survivors in the first week, when they are fed, armed, and in numbers.
And the undead already have benefits to killing survivors: it adds one more zombie to the mob. Which, in turn, makes it easier to kill as well.
But this idea isn't primarily about killing!
It's about making the Undead gameplay parallel ["as engaging as"] the Survivor gameplay, and further diversifying the experience of the game! ;D
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nope
Member
Posts: 150
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Post by nope on Nov 5, 2011 3:32:37 GMT
Let me explain a little bit more in detail, a not-so-alive human doesn't evolve into a neophyte by time, it has to kill, to FEED, gaining the nutrition of the brains, allowing the zombie to mutate(or atleast that's my theory)
same thing to this gaining skills thing, a survivor can't just hide in the bloody sewers and wait for days, thanks to hunger, neither should a zombie, and if you can't kill survivors early on, get away from the undead race ye maggot
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Post by tons0phun on Dec 28, 2011 22:31:56 GMT
I disagree!
I think playing undead is all about patience. If you go around just trying to kill every living thing in the first week, you'll get blasted by cops within a day!
But if you skulk around through the sewers, pick up the odd undead or two, surface now and then to chase people into exhaustion, or catch them when they sleep, you get a zombie army in no time!
It could be I require more patience because I also play without evolution turned on...
Currently "evolution" is just a straight-up increase of damage and HP, without any variety as the title evolution would imply.
I think if it were something more similar to a skill, in that it created some randomization and variety, it would feel a little more evolutionary.
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Post by stolas on Jan 5, 2012 22:04:45 GMT
First, the playstyles of the Living and Undead are very different ideally.
For the Living, these are the concepts I feel are important to remember.
1. You are a survivor, not an action hero.
2. Zombies are to be feared, evaded whenever possible. Direct combat should not be on your mind except as a last resort. Zombies ought never drop any resource that might provide a benefit to fighting against them.
3. The needs for food/water/sleep aid the need to roam the wasteland, forcing exposure to the Undead and are real the impetus of the fear, considering in the hands of a capable gamer trying to hole up is relatively simple and running from most enemies isn't an issue.
4. Gameplay should be centered upon the goal of encouraging the above ideals.
Giving skills to humans from combat is directly in violation of points 1 and 2.
This idea would encourage a player to level grind against their hated enemy, meaning the Undead would no longer be the rotting, undead hordes and instead become another enemy to be defeated for points or a new item.
Now, on the Flipside of the coin.
The Undead concepts.
1. You do not need to eat, you do not need to sleep.
2. Your prey DOES.
The Undead lifestyle (Ha) is very simple in comparison. And could use some fleshing out. However, the predatory aspect of the Undead I feel ought to be encouraged, so a boost to health and evolutions and new perks makes sense to me. The issue is if you make these time released, the Undead you are playing as will be hunkering down in the sewers leveling up without the need for food or drink or sleep. By making these perks and such given according to kills however, you would encourage a predatory style and expand the gameplay. I would like to see the views of others on these concepts.
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Post by tons0phun on Jan 7, 2012 23:01:58 GMT
By making these perks and such given according to kills however, you would encourage a predatory style and expand the gameplay. Nay, I say! By making killing a condition for undead evolution/skills you are not encouraging predatory play, you are requiring it. But as one remains as an intact corpse, and becomes more powerful with each passing night, the inherent benefit of skills will encourage it. The other matter being that not all people like to endlessly chase down survivors when they play as zombies. Sometimes my primarily goal is to slink around unseen and avoiding survivors entirely, until I can make my way around to find the hospital. Even then, I'm not the type of zombie that likes outright frontal-assaults, but I prefer b-movie styled in-the-dark or around-the-corner ambushes on any would-be survivors that may try to hunt me. Forcing kills for skills is a form of experience/grind rewards for tasks, and as it is not a requirement on the survivor side, it should not be a requirement on the undead side. I know it may sound odd but, the undead have to survive the living, just as the living have to survive the undead. This game is entirely devoid of the worst of rpg elements [e.g. make kills, receive experience], and ought to remain that way. Most people quickly turn to the complaint, "Oh, but you can just sit in the sewers for days, under no threat, and when you come out you will be unstoppable evolved monster!" Unstoppable? I'm sure that 3 police with shotguns would say otherwise. I'm sure that 6 bikers with sledgehammers, bats, and pistols would say otherwise. I'm absolutely certain that 7 national guardsmen with assault rifles and grenades would put you down in a single turn. The undead population just like the survivor population, is in a constant state of flux as surviving members of either side constantly die day by day, and new members of either faction join day by day. Even with a undead skills as this, it would remain that way. Of course, that is all respectfully in my opinion.  |
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Post by hunteralpha1 on Jan 10, 2012 4:02:19 GMT
how about if zombies gain a single skill point at the end of each day in which they kill someone, no matter how many or how few they kill, so long as it's more than zero?
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Post by stolas on Jan 13, 2012 0:12:55 GMT
Tons0phun, you made a truly beautiful argument there!
My ideal version of Undead play would be enabling alternate routes of evolution, allowing a player to pick what would allow them to gain skills or improvements by selecting in a sense what class they would become. One branch of classes would gain perks, stat boosts, and new forms based on time progression while the other branch would be focused on kills.
I apologize for not adding In My Opinion, not including that made me resemble a tool.
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nope
Member
Posts: 150
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Post by nope on Jan 14, 2012 21:28:54 GMT
that would be like giving out free lunches, and there's no such thing in the world, when it comes to skills, you want players to WORK for the goddamn thing, if you look from the human perspective, it encourages people to go out and kill zombies so that they don't manifest in your prison cells and wreck everything including humans, and turning into a seek game is totally not in favour of RS's core gameplay, and you also SERIOUSLY underestimated the zombies, true, their slowness means that it can cause big chases across a district, but while humies have to sleep, get tired and have to eat, you don't, a zombie is one of endurance, tactics, intellegence and strategy, it ain' t no bunny hill
Three cops with shotguns?, line up humans so that only one can shoot you, Bikers? cheap cannon fodder, pick off individual targets, not the whole mob, seven fully armed NG? well, it's a nobrainer : you will die, doesn't matter what you are
you also speak the undeads as if a faction, well, guess what? it ain't no faction, it a dominating force with a endless amount of foot soldiers, while you find survivors singly, you'll find zombies in big crowds, active, and thats the word, zombies should always be active, not slacked away in some corner, besides, you could just join a ZM/Human scent mob if you can't play well
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